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Hey guys, a little while ago I responded to another's post about residual lies lingering around, and I'm in the same position. We're almost a year into R, with most of WW's and AP's anniversaries. Oof that was as tough as I thought it was gonna be! Bute there are still a few things that my gut feels are lies that she won't come clean on. They're unbelievable and go against other proof/evidence/AP's account. Some of these things are:
That after weeks of inappropriate messages, flirts, and suggestive pictures, 3 days after we separated she got him over to her hotel room. They researched jury duty the day prior, and he used that as an excuse with his BW so they could have the day together. They were supposed to meet at a park and go for a walk, but for reasons she "doesn't remember" he came directly to her hotel room. They immediately started having unprotected sex (His account was she led him straight to the bed and started undoing his pants, she doesn't remember what went down but says it wasn't that.) He even asked her if it was what she wanted before entering her. Because he was my only friend I was reaching out to about our relationship, turns out he even responded to one of my texts from the hotel parking lot after banging my wife.
Another is that she wasn't attracted to him at all until they started flirting. BUT, during the A she had told him she wanted him for a long time, even told him she was jealous of the last woman he had an A with. He's a serial cheater, my wife consoled his wife after the last affair. I reflect back and remember all the times they we were all together how she'd hang on his every word. She even texted him directly a few times before the affair, asking for car buying advice (they slept together multiple times in the $60k vehicle I'd just bought her), to asking if he'd come over to trim our trees while I was recovering from my 4th back surgery (this was the start of their A, she texted him thanking him and it just went from there. Within a day they moved to Skype so they wouldn't get busted). She would NEVER text any of her other friend's husbands, but she texted him directly. After she consoled his BW for a previous affair, she didn't respect her or their marriage enough to go through his W if she needed help.
One more (there's plenty more) is that when the affair ended, she was the one to end it. According to him, his wife became very suspicious and told him whatever he was doing and whoever it was with to stop immediately if he wanted to stay married (like I said serial cheater, but she couldn't make it on her own with 4 kids, three of which are disabled). He said that he didn't want her to be upset with him and possibly tell his wife, so he started taking longer to respond to messages, wouldn't meet up as much, telling her his new mental health meds were messing him up. Finally, after a few days of not hearing back from him, she "ended" it by leaving one last message: "Guess I'm deleting Skype, you have my number". She stands by this was her permanently ending it. I believe his side of the story because I used to use tactics like that when I was trying to keep women from getting attached to me. I believe this was her trying to get him to talk to her again, and if he couldn't that she was available whenever he wanted to call. Just a few days later, she started talking to me again, because she wasn't getting any attention and knew I would shower her with it trying to save our marriage.

There's more that are much of the same. The narrative I've put together has been accurate, but she denies it in these areas. Her denial of it doesn't even make sense- she offers no context as to why her story was the truth. Whenever asked for details, she would say she can't remember (she's diagnosed Bipolar and has a bad memory). The things she won't admit are backed by evidence, previous conversations, and his account (On Dday I called his wife on speakerphone for her and I to grill them with questions.) And to top it off, her stories just don't make sense. She has the whole thing completely compartmentalized. She was supposed to be working with her therapist to learn to open back up to herself, but she's still not there after almost a year. She says she doesn't remember anything during that time, and she wasn't thinking about anything (She thought to use jury duty to see him!)
So I'm stuck here with these nagging issues, knowing I'm still being lied to. We've made so much progress in MC with communicating and conflict resolution, so I was OK waiting for her to open up so we could actual process the A. Now she says she's never going to open up about it. I offered a polygraph for her to prove herself. If she's telling the truth and trying to prove it to me so I could start trusting her again, I thought she'd jump on it. But she's refusing, saying it's humiliating and I would use it to throw in her face down the road. During a recent argument I'd even told her that if she refuses the poly, we're done. Not yelling or feeding into her crap, just matter of factly stated. She had the audacity to get mad at ME for wanting to end the relationship. I keep telling her she ended it when she did what she did, and if it actually ends it's because of what she did. MC is avoiding it until my W starts her new therapist (previous dropped our insurance) to work things out.

Guess I'm just looking for a little reassurance. I'm tired of being the crazy one with snooping, accusations, and ultimatums. I know the poly is not hard evidence, and with how coldly she hid all this from me she'd probably be able to fool it. Anyone have any alternative solution ideas? I cannot accept her version of these things. Sorry for the long post, thanks ya'll I appreciate all the help throughout this miserable journey!

Time for a polygraph

I would say polygraph is fine. We did them too. I think they can be an effective tool to put nagging issues to rest.

However- I want to point out your friend has as much to hide from you as she does. In his mind making everything seem like her idea absolves him in some ways. It’s a shoulder shrug "gee buddy I couldn’t resist, she is just a seductress" While I wouldn’t dismiss it I would recognize that he is not a better source and the truth is something in the middle.I am not saying she isn’t lying - she probably is. She wants to preserve the marriage and many of the things she was thinking likely feels like it flies in the face of that.

There are some things here about her affair that reminds me of mine.

First and foremost, I chose a serial cheater for mine too- I knew exactly who he was. For me it was more a matter of convenience than who the person actually was. Often I think that’s the case in an affair. I told my Ap just as many lies- about how I had always wanted him. Affairs are fantasy so it becomes this gross tit for tat where you do things to get what you want.

But in that same way, it means to me I was ripe to have an affair with anyone at that time. Not because of my husband or our marriage but because of what I lacked in my own internal world. (Not taking care of my own happiness, not communicating with my husband, holding hidden resentment unfairly, a sense of entitlement, lack of integrity,etc)

Mostly an affair is an act of self adulation- wanting to be seen a certain way. Conquering a man who is a serial cheater is a stupid way of fulfilling that- but most of the time when people have an affair they just put lipstick on a pig.

I think sometimes it’s hard to relay "yes I told him that but it wasn’t true" because it makes you look even guiltier. In reality, it would be expected that you would tell the Ap lies, you are lying to everyone else including yourself. Telling my husband all of this lacked any logic. So it was double edged - tell him the truth and it still sounds made up, or deny.

For me, I knew I had to tell him everything the best I could explain it because there could be no more lies. I wanted to restore my own integrity, and I knew I wanted to reconcile if he would have me and we couldn’t do it based on more lies.

I am not telling you that last part for a pat on the back, I am telling you that when she has done the work on herself (supposing she does) that is what I believe it needs to look like.

I will say for a long while it was hard to admit to myself how stupidly and haphazardly I threw that bomb into our marriage. But she has been in IC for a year now? She should be able to relay more things by now.

I think she is overwhelmed with shame and it’s clouding her judgement terribly. You are right to not trust what is happening. But I think it’s more for the work she is supposed to be doing showing up in how she is talking about this. Not to get her to confirm his side of what happened.

She didn’t have an affair because this serial cheating man was a catch. She had an affair to get some sort of validation herself. Very confusing that either of us would look for validation with someone who would say or do anything to get their next conquest. But I think deep down for me, a man who is a serial cheat often has an ability to tell a woman what she wants to hear. There is no excuse meant in there- I fully own my choices and actions.

I am just. telling you it’s possible that she was more looking for what she could get from him rather than the man himself. Just like he was just looking to get in her pants, she was using him too. Likely as an escape, validation, and dopamine hits.

It’s hard to say "yes I told him that but didn’t mean it" because there is no other rational conclusion you could possibly come to other than she did in fact mean it. But in reality while in an affair You give what you want, she likely did say it to him to get him to reciprocate- because that was what she was mainly seeking the ego kibbles and validation.

The other thing that we have in common is the Ap ended ot because of trouble at home. That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t have ended it, but affairs are addictive. I don’t know if I would have or not. I can tell you that I am very glad it did end when it did, and it’s something I wish deeply I could travel back in time and erase all together. I never wanted that man- I wanted to feel happy, wanted, desirable, younger, more vibrant, etc.

Bottom line is she needs to be articulating what it is she was seeking, why she was seeking it, more internally aware, more communicative, and more honest. She needs to identify why she did it and work on the corrections. If her focus is on those things it’s moving in the right direction. She will be able to tie back the things she said and did in a way that will form a bigger picture.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:20 PM, Monday, April 11th]

I'm really sorry you're being put through this. You deserve the whole truth. I say this gently and with empathy, but you're not actually in R if she is still lying to you. You cannot heal and regain or rebuild trust if you do not believe her story. These lies will fester - time will not plaster over them.

I agree that polygraphs are not bulletproof but I think they are better than nothing and I think they are most likely to be effective in situations like yours where there are specific areas of the timeline that you have doubts about.

Ultimately however, the only solution if she refuses or is bold enough to try to beat the polygraph when she's clearly hiding something, is your willingness to actually follow through with consequences for refusal or failure. She continues to lie to you because she believes she can get away with it. The longer you let her do so, the more reason she has to continue lying.

Trust your gut. It’s NEVER wrong.
Go with the polygraph. That should be a good start.
Remember that cheaters lie. A lot. In fact, you can’t believe anything they say. It’s safe to assume everything they say is a lie. It sucks.
Sorry you are in this position.

My understanding is that if she's bipolar, she genuinely may have experienced memory loss. A poly won't help much with that - you can ask if she remembers doing something or not, but if she doesn't remember, you can't find out what she did from her, and the ap could easily be lying, too.

I think you're stuck with deciding how much uncertainty you're willing to live with and whether you're willing to live with more uncertainty than most of us have to live with.

Ok, so you are a victim of a double betrayal. I hope you are no longer friends with the AP and I hope someone told his wife that the OW was your wife. That is the least that should have been done after the shit hit the fan.

Sounds like she won't take the polygraph. You must follow through with your threat and file for divorce. I don't know the details of your marriage, the number of children, their ages, and your financial issues but why do you want to stay with this person? Please don't tell me you love her. Honestly, I have a hard time understanding how BSs can still claim deep love for someone who has been so disrespectful, callous, uncaring, demeaning, and deceptive. It's got to be co-dependency mixed with a good slice of fear.

This was not an ONS. She cheated with your only friend. My god, how utterly heartless and slimy. But if R is what you want, so be it. Do yourself a favor and stand by your threat that you will leave her if she doesn't take the polygraph. Good luck to you. I hope you clearly see everything in its proper light sooner rather than later.

I saw you posted on my post and decided to respond here. I was going to post last night but I was feeling lazy. The nagging feeling the whole truth isn't being disclosed has been really hard for me. The one comment someone made to me about the WW being afraid to tell the whole truth out of fear it will be the last straw plays into it I think. I think you also hit the nail on the head when you mentioned her compartmentalizing. My wife also said she didn't go into the meeting planning to have sex. However, through conversations she did admit that she thought it was possible he might try something and if he did she would cross that bridge when she came to it. We've both agreed since she was married, that was the moment she really decided to have sex, regardless of if they spoke to each other about it, which she claims they did not.

I think part of this has to do with that question many people on this forum had when they found out, "who is this person I'm married to?". They make decisions and do things we wouldn't have expected in a million years. A lot of the work my wife and I have been doing involves me just understanding her thought process and feelings in regards to the A and AP. Just yesterday my wife and I listened to a call I had recorded between her and the AP just two week after I became suspicious (I've been asking her to listen to it with me for 4 years). The call had been historically my basis for calling her out on a lot of her lies and bullshit. However, when she listened to it I could see that she was surprised and ashamed of the things she was saying to him. I really think she blocked a lot of it out, things she didn't want to face because of the kind of person it would make her feel like. I though her listening to the call would jog her memories about certain details from that time. It didn't really, but it did open her eyes to how nasty she was to me. What I heard from her after we listened was a sobbing person who repeatedly said I should have left her after I first heard the call. She couldn't believe I stuck around after that. It was one of those moments that I saw as her showing remorse. I realized that some of these things she says that I don't think add up aren't concerted deceptions in the way I thought they were. Over time she compartmentalized and repressed actions and deeds that made her feel shame. She was turning away from her shame. That impacts the way she remembers the history of the affair and us. It's not so much her withholding the truth from me to not get caught or not upset me more as much as it is her withholding the truth from herself to avoid the shame.

We like to think that all of the deceit is directed at the betrayed partner. I think they lie to themselves as well which is sad because it stands in the way of them growing as individuals and in the marriage. I know I can leave the marriage and find a healthy relationship someday. I can't say the same for my wife. I think she's getting there, but it's bee slow. One difference between our stories is my wife is willing to take a polygraph.

The other thing that stuck out to me about your post was her coming back to you when he ignored her. That sounds like you were plan B and she came back to you when plan A fizzled. I've had similar concerns for my situation. It's hard to be sure if that's the case or not. For me I have a post nup in place and plan to stay alert. I can pull the trigger on divorce any time. I'm just going to watch and see. Keep in mind I have good days and bad days when it comes to my belief of my wife's sincerity. I'm having a good day today.

Over time she compartmentalized and repressed actions and deeds that made her feel shame. She was turning away from her shame. That impacts the way she remembers the history of the affair and us. It's not so much her withholding the truth from me to not get caught or not upset me more as much as it is her withholding the truth from herself to avoid the shame.

FWIW It's not just WS that have memory loss. A while back a trigger brought back some of the angst left over from my first marriage. As part of the process working through this I walked back through the IM logs between me and my ex. The ILYBINILWY speech from my ex was there in chat logs. That was done while I was working. On my Birthday. This was just over 10 years ago, and I hadn't remembered that she did it that way on my birthday. I still can't believe that I forgot that. At the time I was stunned that was how she did it.

"Guess I'm deleting Skype, you have my number". She stands by this was her permanently ending it. I believe his side of the story because I used to use tactics like that when I was trying to keep women from getting attached to me. I believe this was her trying

This clearly indicates she did not end it there, she left the door wide open, all he had to do was send her a text or her or call her.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 6:21 AM, Wednesday, April 13th]

Here’s my take on all of this.

I decided that I knew what the truth was. What happened. How it happened. I don’t need my H to validate anything. Some things he says "yes it happened like that" and others he disagreed with my version of events.

IMO he didn’t tell the full truth on some things. Doesn’t matter why or how insignificant the details are, the point is we have a difference of opinion.

And in my mind I am right. Nothing he can say will change my mind. Since there is no proof of certain things, I am right.

And he just has to accept the fact that I don’t believe him.

BrokenChief, you can spend your energy trying to get to the full truth (which may never happen b/c cheaters lie ) OR you can accept what you know and move on.

Case in point. I recently left my church after 25+ years. Senior minister told a lie about me (not the first bout in the arena with this person). It’s a common occurrence with this very unChristian person. I have seen it happen to others.

But here’s the thing. I know the minister lied. Other people acknowledged the lie. Of course the minister claims she didn’t lie but there’s a proven history of lying from the minister.

I walked away. You can’t stay and fight a liar. They will not admit they lied. They will twist the truth to suit the narrative they wish to spew.

You move on. In whatever way you need to. I’m done cases you end the relationship. In others you just accept the reality that the person won’t be honest.

You choose to D or R after an affair based on many different factors. But if a spouse wants to R I believe they may not be fully honest b/c of the fear of D. The thinking is "if I admit that detail they will D me" so the cheater continues to lie.

Don’t scorns energy in getting the truth. Accept you know the truth.

A polygraph? IMO a waste of time. The liar fails - they were "nervous". They passed - are you still going to believe the polygraph test when things don’t add up? Doubtful.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 12:19 PM, Wednesday, April 13th]

Acceptance. Before my wife had her affair I didn’t know what it meant. Took me years to get to the place of "It is what it is"
The truth is subjective. Your version, her version, the APs version. All will be different. After all the dust settles it will come down to what you can live with. Polygraphs or any other means of getting truth are not going to make you feel better. She had sex with someone else. She lied to do it. She broke her promise. Will she do it again. The ruminating will eat you alive from the inside. For me it was and still can be an internal battle of going down the rabbit hole and coming up with more and more questions. But in the end she screwed someone else. Maybe once maybe a hundred times. Maybe they did all kinds of wild things. In the end it still hurts it’s still betrayal. My wife’s AP in my opinion was a single unattached male who went from woman to woman. He was nothing like me. I asked the therapist "Why him?" He said mid "Would it have hurt any less if he was a successful ambitious rich man". It dawned on me then .No it would have been exactly the same pain. As betrayed spouses in my opinion we look for something, anything to make the pain go away. I ruminated for years over the truth. Phone records, data dumps, interrogations, spread sheets correlating dates. Reading deleted text messages. Asking the same questions over and over. Looking for the truth. Looking for why. Why wasn’t I enough. Why was he better. What is wrong with me. Then somewhere along the road the answers to my questions came. I will never know the entire truth. Just the subjective view of a broken person. I wasn’t there so I will never know my truth. There was never anything wrong with me. He was not better. She was broken. You learn acceptance. Not over night. It took me years. I learned it and boundaries. What I would accept and not accept as appropriate behaviour from my spouse. What I was willing to do if those boundaries were ever exceeded going forward. I made these crystal clear to my spouse. So they can have their truth. In the end I made my world beneficial to me. Because knowing didn’t heal me. Doing did.

The way to stop having to snoop, feel crazy and issue ultimatums, is to leave the person who is provoking you to do and feel these things. Is this really who you want to grow old with? There are plenty of women out there who don't cheat, and would love to be married to a faithful man. Leave your wife and find someone else.